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Do you think this guy might possibly be DANGEROUS?
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TOPIC: Do you think this guy might possibly be DANGEROUS?
#16239
Re: Do you think this guy might possibly be DANGEROUS? 2 Years, 9 Months ago Karma: 168
And, finally, you have accused my of disrespecting God, let us have a critical look as to who is disrespecting God.

The Christians state that Man is created in the image of God, so you mean that I have a hand because God has one ? I have a leg because God has one ? So God has veins and blood running ? and God has got sexual organs that I have ? and what does God do with his digestive and excretory systems ? this is not disrespectful ?

You say Christ is God! born from where you and I were born, Christ who was God was born to Mary and made her impure for 40 days according to the bible, and that is respectful ? God eating, sleeping, having a need to go to the toilet in the morning and having a bad breath after a good nights sleep ? This is respectful ? Turning God into a blood thirsty shylock who demands blood for everything, is this respectful ?

Saying that God died a cursed death on the cross at the hands of his enemies is respectful ? God coming to earth to serve man, respectful ? God being flogged, abused, spat on by pagans and arrogant Jews, respectful ?

Humbling and disrespecting God is what Satan takes pleasure in, not believers.

Read what the Quran says about the supremeness of God:

"Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme: Glory to Allah! (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.

He is Allah, the Creator, the Evolver, the Bestower of Forms (or Colours). To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names: whatever is in the heavens and on earth, doth declare His Praises and Glory: and He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise." Quran 59 23:24
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#16240
Re: Do you think this guy might possibly be DANGEROUS? 2 Years, 9 Months ago Karma: 168
LOL, Jeff, it's just that some of debsyl's posts are so full of propaganda that I have to respond to shine a light on the reality!
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#16241
Re: Do you think this guy might possibly be DANGEROUS? 2 Years, 9 Months ago Karma: 268
samix wrote:
LOL, Jeff, it's just that some of debsyl's posts are so full of propaganda that I have to respond to shine a light on the reality!


...and that's how so many WARS have started!!!



SOMEBODY has to say "let's just agree to disagree - and live peacefully side by side.

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#16242
Re: Do you think this guy might possibly be DANGEROUS? 2 Years, 9 Months ago Karma: 268
P.S. Being a FLAGRANT OFFENDER when it comes to "having to have the Last Word" (lol), I'm trying not to be harsh here - for fear of coming across as a complete hypocrite.



But every once in a while I DO manage to take the "high road" and just WALK AWAY from debates from like these...

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#16254
Re: Do you think this guy might possibly be DANGEROUS? 2 Years, 9 Months ago Karma: 168
Debsyl, one thing that I find really amusing is your attempts to present biblical verses to me as proofs against me, If I believed that the bible is the complete, unaltered, unadulterated word of God, I would be on your side already!
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#16983
Re: Do you think this guy might possibly be DANGEROUS? 2 Years, 9 Months ago Karma: 153
Samix, I have decided to respond to all your posts with just one post.

Christians do not just believe that Christ is the son of God; they know He is, as I have shown to you in the many texts from Scripture.

The point which I have made, and the Koran has “agreed” with, is that the prophet Mohammad has been deceived. The satanic verses, as the controversial verses are known, were once found in the Koran. Mohammad had to retract them. No such thing has ever happened to the Bible as it is the inspired word of God.

Samix wrote,
And how have you conveniently forgotten that Satan tempted Christ "your God" for 40 days in the desert, and he gave him such a hard time that he did not eat for 40 days!

No, I have not forgotten about Matthew 4:1-11, but it is important to notice that although Satan made vast promises to Christ, in an attempt to have Christ worship him, not once did Christ Jesus fall for the enticement of the devil. Why? It is because, although he was in His human nature, He was and is God, and thus He was able to withstand Satan’s temptation.

Notice what it says in Matthew 4:7
7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Christ could say this because He IS God.

Samix wrote,
And in the old testament prophets were tempted by Satan and they took to worshiping idols, committing incest, drinking wine!

You are right; many evils took place during the time of the Old Testament, by the people of Israel as well as by some of the priests and prophets. Two examples were the sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas. Keep in mind that these were human beings, not God incarnate. Read what God told young Samuel about Eli and his sons.

Samuel 4:13
13For I have told him that I will judge his house for ever for the iniquity which he knoweth; because his sons made themselves vile, and he restrained them not.

God severely.punished them.
Samuel 4:11
11And the ark of God was taken; and the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were slain.

Samix wrote,
With respect to corrections in the bible, are you refusing that Christians have not been constantly editing the bible ? adding, removing verses passages and chapters ? and marking verses ?


With respect to your comments regarding the accuracy of the Bible I am posting a link, as I am neither a theologian, linguist nor a historian. I have always been content to trust God to preserve His word for us, so the exercise was an eye opener, thanks, Samix. As you can see from the following, God has not disappointed us.

www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorg.html

Please note the conclusion from this link.
With all of the massive manuscript evidence you would think there would be massive discrepancies - just the opposite is true. New Testament manuscripts agree in 99.5% (5) of the text (compared to only 95% for the Iliad). Most of the discrepancies are in spelling and word order. A few words have been changed or added. There are two passages that are disputed but no discrepancy is of any doctrinal significance (i.e., none would alter basic Christian doctrine). Most Bibles include the options as footnotes when there are discrepancies. How could there be such accuracy over a period of 1,400 years of copying? Two reasons: The scribes that did the copying had meticulous methods for checking their copies for errors. 2) The Holy Spirit made sure we would have an accurate copy of God's word so we would not be deceived. The Mormons, theological liberals as well as other cults and false religions such as Islam that claim the Bible has been tampered with are completely proven false by the extensive, historical manuscript evidence.”

Samix wrote,
In Islam salvation is not through actions as you have claimed in your posts, but it is through faith that there is only One God, the actions that come after faith are actually an attestation of faith, unlike Christianity where everyone says that they believe and then with their actions prove that they do not believe at all!

Samix, it is you, who said in an earlier post that it is your actions that save you,

Samix’s comment from an earlier post,

Yes, why is it so difficult to accept this, if I make a mistake it is my problem and if I earn good It's for my sake.


But more important, to your fellow Muslims, is the teaching of the Koran.

Consider what is written in Surah 23:102 & 103
23:102 Then those whose balance (of good deeds) is heavy,- they will attain salvation:
23:103 But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls, in Hell will they abide.

It is for this reason that Muslims never really have assurance that they will attain salvation. What if Allah finds the balance more in favour of evil works rather than of good?

When Christians put their faith in Jesus Christ, they can rest in the knowledge that He has paid the price for their sins. They have assurance of their salvation, a comfort not known to Muslims.

And it was I, who said,

Debsyl wrote in an earlier post,
Yes, we (Christians) still do good works, but they are because of our gratitude for the gift of eternal life and they are a reflection of the love we have for Christ Jesus our Saviour and His love for us.

Samix wrote,
unlike Christianity where everyone says that they believe and then with their actions prove that they do not believe at all!

You are “groping at straws”, Samix. We both know this is not true. Christian aid workers travel around the world to assist those in distress. We do not restrict ourselves to assist only those in “Christian” countries; we go all over the world, helping all peoples, from all nations, of all faiths, often risking our lives in so doing.

Samix wrote,
You said that Muslims seek to be perfect, no, it is Christians who aim to be perfect, remember the young man who came to Christ asked how to be perfect ? Today the Christians want to push all their sins on Christ and become perfect angelic beings in the kingdom of heaven.

The act of killing someone for the sin or crime of another is unjust and repulsive to the Muslims, we believe in the doctrine of personal responsibility, where each one is responsible for their actions and one is not to be condemned for the act of another.


Samix, I don’t mind discussing this with you, but you keep reintroducing the same topic after I have gone to great lengths to explain them to you.
E.g. I have shown you how and from what, man must be saved revealing clearly why blood had to be shed to pay for the sins of mankind. Perhaps you would do well to return to the post and re-read what I have posted, rather than question it again. Scripture is VERY clear on this subject; you just choose to ignore what I have written.

You mention that Islam believes in two types of sin. Isn’t it interesting how the Bible teaches the same thing, as I pointed out to you in an earlier post with respect to the two tablets of the 10 Commandments found in the Old Testament and which Christ repeated in Mark 12:29-31. The 10 commandments are the foundation on which society has rested for years; no doubt Mohammad borrowed from them when “writing” the Koran.

With respect to the rich young man, again I will point you to an earlier post where I clearly showed you how you misunderstand the story of the rich young man. Perhaps you should revisit that post as well.

Here is what I wrote,
You will notice that Jesus “quoted” the “10 commandments” and the rich young man said he obeyed them perfectly. Yet, the man was not happy because something was missing – in his heart he knew he was not saved, so he asked Jesus “what else must I do to be saved”?
Jesus’s answer was a test. Jesus was telling the man that keeping the commandments is important, but more important than anything else was did he truly love Jesus. It is something like a father telling his son what to do. The son obeys his father to the letter, but he does so grudgingly. The son is not happy. Yes, he obeyed his father, but not in a loving manner. After Jesus told the man to sell all and give it to the poor, it became very clear that his love for Jesus was second to his love for money. Notice that Jesus does not say that rich men don’t go to heaven, but rather it is more difficult for the wealthy to love Jesus above all else (including their money),
Matthew 19:22-26
22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Christians know that they can never be perfect on this earth, they know they do not enter into eternity by means of good works. It is by grace that we are saved.

Ephesians 2:7-9
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This by no means suggests that Christians can live as they please. Christians are personally responsible for their actions, but they are blessed with the knowledge that although we are unable to make payment for our sins, Christ has freely paid the price for His people.

Anyone who sins “easily” without remorse or repentance does not understand the teaching of Christ and is not a Christian.

Samix wrote,
Now you see, the Quran is explicit about it's premise, the American constitution is explicit about it's premise, but when It comes to modern Christianity you have to go to "threads woven", "pointing to", "alluding to" , "prophecies fulfilled", this is not how a premise is established, the fact that you have to bend head over heel to re-interpret verses in the light of the Pauline doctrine says a lot.

When attempting to obtain information on Mohammad, I noted numerous references to Mohammad’s conquests, there are pictures of the prophet with his sword, as well as individual pictures of Mohammad’s sword. It is clear that history associates Mohammad with violence.

Would it be fair thus to say the premise of Islam is the sword?

In an effort to obtain information on Jesus Christ, one reads of His virgin birth, His miracles and His sacrificial death as an atonement for the sins of His people. No mention of violence is found at all.

Again, I will remind you that violence which has been committed in the past under the guise of Christianity cannot be traced to the teaching of Christ, while Muslims have every “reason” for violence as it is taught in the Koran, in the traditions of Mohammad and thus it is taught in the schools of Saudi Arabia. One cannot help but notice that violence is part and parcel of Islam.

Samix, I used the phrase “thread woven throughout Scriptures“ in an attempt to help you understand that although the Bible was “written” by many men, there are no contradictions within the Bible. The way of salvation is the same; the prophecies as outlined in the Old Testament were fulfilled in the New Testament. It is clear that you have CHOSEN not to understand. I have not re-interpreted any portion of scripture; I have shown clearly to you that you consistently read (and post) passages completely out of context and thus you have no understanding of Christianity or its teachings. In fact, I expect you have not so much as read what you were quoting, or you would not have used the passages to which you made reference. God has made His teachings very clear. It is people like you, Samix, who chose not to believe and then attempt to blame God for your lack of understanding.

The fact remains that many Old Testament passages point directly to, or prophecy specific details, that are later shown to be fulfilled in the New Testament. One need not “bend head over heal” to show the correlation between the two testaments. It is obvious to all who spend the time to read the scriptures, with an open mind, that the Bible is the inspired word of God and that Jesus Christ is the “beloved Son of God”. Matthew 3:17, Matthew 17:5, Mark 9:7, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22

Samix wrote,
Now compare these verses to the verses of war and genocide that exist in the Old Testament, but before we explore these verses let us remember that the Christians believe that Christ is part of the holy trinity and thus God, so Jesus is not just the God of the New Testament, but also of the Old Testament, so in effect all the verses that I am going to quote below the acts of killing woman, infants and men were actually commanded, abetted, tolerated and furthered by Jesus Christ, the prince of peace himself.

This is a perfect example whereby I can show that you have not so much as read what I wrote in my last post. It is there that I clearly showed to you the difference between the Old and New Testaments. Samix, you are not telling me anything new, I already explained why God punished these people.

I will re-quote what I wrote in the earlier post.

Debsyl from an earlier post,
“I understand that you may wish to direct my attention to the Old Testament and the violence as revealed therein, but it is very important to note that the prominent theme in the Old Testament was the divine holiness of God and His punishment of the sinfulness of humanity. We should not view the former inhabitants of Canaan as an innocent people who were just living their normal life and that the Israelites, for no apparent reason, invaded and destroyed them and their property. Instead, God told Abraham in Genesis 15:13-16 that the sins of those living in the land had not come to its limit and that in several hundred years He would judge and punish them because of their wickedness. In Leviticus 18:28, similarly God told Moses that if the Israelites disobeyed God and sinned as the former inhabitants had, then God would also punish them. God kept His word, using other nations to punish the Israelites for their sinfulness.”

I appreciate why you would like the readers to think that Christ was anything but perfect, but His actions speak for themselves, as do His teachings.

Samix, I have no doubt that the Koran has many beautiful poetic passages, as well as instructional passages on various topics, but I quoted the Beatitudes to show the stark contrast between the teachings and traditions of the prophet Mohammad and Jesus Christ. Mohammad taught violence by example when he ordered the killing of those who ridiculed him. Jesus' message, on the other hand, is one of grace and submission. He tells us that when we're mistreated or insulted, we shouldn't respond in kind, but should instead treat our enemies with grace, even praying for them!

You suggest I have quoted the violent passages from the Koran out of context. Although I have other passages I can quote, I expect you will say that I have taken them out of context as well. Regardless, I would like to point out to you, that many of your fellow Muslims don’t read these passages in the same context as you suggest they should be read, nor do some of the school textbooks, in Arabian schools, reveal a compassionate and loving religion, these violent acts and teaching of violence speak for themselves.

I can link you to many sites of Imam’s shouting their hatred towards their enemies and calling for their destruction. I also have links of Imams giving instructions on how to beat one’s wife and yet not inflicting “too much” pain. On one such video the Imam says Islam does not condone the beating of one’s wife, and that Koran 4:34 is misunderstood, and then he proceeds to tell what type of beating is acceptable.

I expect you would not wish for me to post these, as they point to an extremely violent religion.

Please, Samix, do not blame the west for making up fables about your religion, the actions of Muslims around the world speak for themselves.

Consider the looting and rampaging done because a Koran was burnt.

www.washingtonpost.com/world/afghans-pro...gallery.html#photo=1

Please do not misunderstand me, I do not condone the burning of any religious book, but I post this to make my point.

Other examples include: the threatened execution of an Iranian pastor who rejected the Muslim faith and the ongoing honor killings we read about, even in Canada and the USA, mostly by Muslim males towards female family members who have “dishonoured” their family or community.

The actions of your fellow Muslims speak louder than your words, Samix.

Samix wrote,
So, debsyl, just stop taking a moral high ground as if Muslims are all savages and barbarians with no moral code

Samix, this discussion started because Jeff called Christians blood thirsty sub-humans. There is nothing further from the truth; in fact, it is they who risk their lives to help the less fortunate in developing and war torn countries. Why? Certainly not because they are sub human, but rather they are following the example of Christ; they are reflecting the love of Christ. Again, I say what a stark contrast this is to Mohammad and his followers, as tradition teaches us.

When one considers the looting, rampaging and destroying of property, the threatening to execute a fellow human being for desiring to follow the teachings of another, the honour killings and the Imam’s spewing hatred towards the west and Israel, demanding their death, I ask you has anything really changed?

Perhaps this would be the appropriate place to show the following links:

www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/franklin-gra...2011/03/18/id/389992

rt.com/news/peninsula-saudi-grand-mufti-701/

Samix wrote,
The Christians state that Man is created in the image of God, so you mean that I have a hand because God has one ? I have a leg because God has one ? So God has veins and blood running ? and God has got sexual organs that I have ? and what does God do with his digestive and excretory systems ? this is not disrespectful ?

You say Christ is God! born from where you and I were born, Christ who was God was born to Mary and made her impure for 40 days according to the bible, and that is respectful ? God eating, sleeping, having a need to go to the toilet in the morning and having a bad breath after a good nights sleep ? This is respectful ? Turning God into a blood thirsty shylock who demands blood for everything, is this respectful ?

Saying that God died a cursed death on the cross at the hands of his enemies is respectful ? God coming to earth to serve man, respectful ? God being flogged, abused, spat on by pagans and arrogant Jews, respectful ?


Finally, you have accused me of disrespecting God. Let us consider what you have written regarding the birth of Christ Jesus and the various bodily functions which each of us experiences. Yes, Jesus would have experiences all these aspects of human birth and life in order to take on the human form; they were no doubt very humbling for Him. This brings home the amazing love God has for mankind that He would subject Christ to these aspects of humanity.


With respect to physical characteristics of God I would like to point out that when the Bible refers to God’s right hand etc they are used to help us understand God.
For example:
Psalm 34:15
The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.
Does God have eyes and ears? Of course not, but by using these words we understand that God is attentive to our needs. God is a spirit.

When reference to the teaching that man is created in the image of God, it is important to note that in the broad sense we see that man is a rational being, with language skills, ability to make decisions and act accordingly. This distinguishes man from all other creatures. The moral aspect of this is that man is responsible for his actions. The fall into sin, in paradise, did not take away these characteristics, nor did man lose the ability to understand the difference between right and wrong, as man has a conscience. By our very nature we are moral beings.

The fall into sin however darkened man’s understanding. His feelings are perverted and his conscience is distorted. Although man has not lost the capacity, he has lost the ability to recover his fellowship with God; for this we are totally dependent upon a Redeemer that comes in our human nature and restores us to God. So the image of God is critical both for understanding sin and salvation.

Once again, Samix, I sincerely appreciate the opportunity to dialogue with you. As I have pointed out to you, the Bible has answers for all the questions you have asked. It would be helpful for both of us if you read my responses and refer to the Biblical texts I have quoted, as they clearly address all your enquiries. If after reading them, you still have questions, I would be pleased to answer them.

Ultimately, as readers, we do not stand in judgment of the Bible. Rather, through it God judges the condition of our hearts. Either He determines that we have been made teachable and receptive to His Word, or we are cold and dead, and must be renewed. Since God has chosen to reveal Himself in the Bible, it is the duty of every person to read the Bible and pray to God to reveal Himself to them and grant them salvation.

God will answer everyone who cries out to Him for mercy; and that is what I desire for you, Samix and every other reader who “happens” upon this dialogue.
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#16985
Re: Do you think this guy might possibly be DANGEROUS? 2 Years, 9 Months ago Karma: 168
It is so unfortunate that you had to resort to smearing Muhammed(PBUH) in your last post to make your points, have you run out of arguments debsyl ?

If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modem history with Muhammad? Lamartine Histoire de la Turquie, Pans 1854, Vol. 11, pp. 276-77.
He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue. If ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammad, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports. - Bosworth Smith Mohammad and Mohammadanism, London 1874, p 92.
His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement all argue his fundamental integrity To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad. - W Montgomery Watt Mohammad At Mecca, Oxford, 1953, p 52
Muhammad, the inspired man who founded Islam, was born about AD. 570 into an Arabian tube that worshiped idols. Orphaned at birth, he was always particularly solicitous of the poor and needy the widow and the orphan, the slave and the downtrodden. - James A. Michene
"Islam: The Misunderstood Religion," Reader's Digest. May 1955, pp. 68-70.


The another major part of your post are the activities of the Muslims, how sad that you cannot look at the activities of your fellow Christians around the world, do you want me to write a post exclusively on that, I am sure you will not want me to do that ?

The points that you have raised I have already explained them in my previous posts, with respect to violence, honor killing, women, wars etc, I am not going to go back to it.

debsyl said
The point which I have made, and the Koran has “agreed” with, is that the prophet Mohammad has been deceived. The satanic verses, as the controversial verses are known, were once found in the Koran. Mohammad had to retract them. No such thing has ever happened to the Bible as it is the inspired word of God.
It seems that you did not read my last post, I stated clearly that those words were NEVER spoken by Muhammed(PBUH) and that incident never took place! it was a fabricated event against Muhammed(PBUH). Those words were neither spoken by Muhammed(PBUH), nor were they ever part of the Quran, much less the issue of retracting them from the Quran.

With respect to salvation, let me allow the Quran to speak about it, this is how you achieve salvation in Islam

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages)
Verily Man is in loss
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy. - Quran Sura Asr 103:1-3


The Christian says that believe in Christ and you will have salvation. So the question that comes to mind next is that, so does this mean that after believing in Christ a person can do any act ranging from lying, cheating to murder and rape and still receive salvation because Christ has already paid for the sins of his believers ?

So, the Christian says NO, anyone who believes in Christ and does such things like lying, cheating, rape, alcohol, drugs, murder, rape is not a Christian. So, then the question comes to mind next is, so this means that acts(or lack of bad ones) are indeed important to being a Christian ? and the same Christian now jumps and says, NO!

Does anyone see the contradiction or am I the only one here ?

And if Christ has already payed for the sins of his believers, then they should not be punished in the courts of law in this world, because when God has already forgiven and payed for the sins then who are we humans to punish them ?

With respect to humanitarian missions that Christians embark upon, then indeed, May God reward them for the good that they do to the poor and the needy, In Islam we are ever ready to appreciate the good that is there in people. In the same vein let us not forget that these humanitarian crisis are wrought by the very Christian soldiers who come half way across the globe to bomb, kill and maim people to steal their oil and other resources.

And exemplary Christian congressmen impose trade restrictions, bans and other embargoes on poor countries, thereby affecting severely the standard of living of the people in that country opening for them the doors of disease and death, whereas other exemplary Christian weapon dealers from the west sell weapons fueling civil war, rape and pillage.

These are the only three points that I will touch in this post, because I have already addressed the others in my previous posts, least you should accuse me of bringing up the same topics again, though you have done the same thing by bringing up the actions of my "Fellow Muslims"
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#17142
Re: Do you think this guy might possibly be DANGEROUS? 2 Years, 8 Months ago Karma: 168
samix wrote:

With respect to salvation, let me allow the Quran to speak about it, this is how you achieve salvation in Islam

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages)
Verily Man is in loss
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy. - Quran Sura Asr 103:1-3


I think I have left this unexplained. The verse makes it clear that to achieve Salvation, a Muslim has to be an all round individual, thus there are four conditions mentioned in the verse
1) To have faith in God and
2) Perform righteous deeds(deeds of the heart and limb) and
3) Teach and support the truth and
4) Teach and observe patience

So we see that here are 4 things that are chained together with "and" with faith being central to the next three points.

If a person has tried his best to adhere to these points to the best of his ability after entering into faith, then salvation is for him, guaranteed, the test is true sincerity.

To further elaborate the point, there is another verse of the Quran where God states
Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested?
But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars. Quran 29:1-2


This is where actions of the heart and limb come into play, when you are afflicted with bad times, it is incumbent upon a Muslim to have faith, be patient and be thankful to his Lord, exert in doing good and abstain from harming people placing his hope in his Lord to change his condition.

When good times return, it is incumbent for the Muslim to be thankful to his Lord, and still have patience, patience in not falling in debauchery and be lost in this material world, but again exert in doing good deeds to the people and stop himself from harming the people, because it is easy to harm people in times of ease rather in times of hardship.

We believe that this life is a test, whereby each one of us is given a set of resources and tested, and out reckoning with our Lord will be with respect to what we were given, how we used it, how we spent it, what we did with it. The test is true sincerity with faith being central.
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#17877
Re: Do you think this guy might possibly be DANGEROUS? 2 Years, 7 Months ago Karma: 153
Samix wrote,
It is so unfortunate that you had to resort to smearing Muhammed(PBUH) in your last post to make your points, have you run out of arguments debsyl ?

Samix, I thought we were having an amicable discussion, not an argument. Please tell me how I smeared Mohammad.

Samix wrote,
The another major part of your post are the activities of the Muslims, how sad that you cannot look at the activities of your fellow Christians around the world, do you want me to write a post exclusively on that, I am sure you will not want me to do that ?

I am curious to see news articles indicting that Christians are persecuting and killing Muslims because of their faith. Please remember that a Christian is one who adheres to the teachings of Christ. Everyone who professes to be a Christian is not necessarily one. Christ taught, by their fruits you shall know them.

Matthew 7:15-20
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Samix wrote,
The points that you have raised I have already explained them in my previous posts, with respect to violence, honor killing, women, wars etc, I am not going to go back to it.

Samix, I have not seen any explanation from you regarding these topics, perhaps it was not on this thread. I would appreciate knowing how you feel about the Imams condoning the beating of Muslim wives and their promotion of violence against their perceived enemies.

Samix wrote,
debsyl said
The point which I have made, and the Koran has “agreed” with, is that the prophet Mohammad has been deceived. The satanic verses, as the controversial verses are known, were once found in the Koran. Mohammad had to retract them. No such thing has ever happened to the Bible as it is the inspired word of God.

It seems that you did not read my last post, I stated clearly that those words were NEVER spoken by Muhammed(PBUH) and that incident never took place! it was a fabricated event against Muhammed(PBUH). Those words were neither spoken by Muhammed(PBUH), nor were they ever part of the Quran, much less the issue of retracting them from the Quran.


If Mohammad did not speak these words than why, Samix, did you make reference to Satan tempting Mohammad, notice what you wrote,Samix.

Samix wrote,
This is the work of Satan, trying to confuse people away from the truth, thus the verse says "Satan threw into it" and then Allah says, "Allah abolishes that which Satan throws in", thus it will never enter into his speech!

And you proceeded to suggest that the “same” happened to Jesus Christ.
Yes, I am familiar with the passage which reveals that Jesus was tempted in the widerness; however, it is important to note a very important difference, Jesus never fell into sin, as he is perfect!

Samix, wrote,
And how have you conveniently forgotten that Satan tempted Christ "your God" for 40 days in the desert, and he gave him such a hard time that he did not eat for 40 days! And in the old testament prophets were tempted by Satan and they took to worshiping idols, committing incest, drinking wine!

With respect to salvation, let me allow the Quran to speak about it, this is how you achieve salvation in Islam
By (the Token of) Time (through the ages)
Verily Man is in loss
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy. - Quran Sura Asr 103:1-3


Your comments regarding the way of salvation for a Muslim are certainly interesting, but could you explain what Surah 23:102 & 103 means?
It clearly points to a religion of works.
Surah 23:102 & 103
23:102 Then those whose balance (of good deeds) is heavy,- they will attain salvation:
23:103 But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls, in Hell will they abide.

Samix wrote,
The Christian says that believe in Christ and you will have salvation. So the question that comes to mind next is that, so does this mean that after believing in Christ a person can do any act ranging from lying, cheating to murder and rape and still receive salvation because Christ has already paid for the sins of his believers ?

Samix, as I indicated earlier, a person who is a Christian would not revel in a life of sin e.g. lying, cheating, murder and rape; however, if a Christian falls into sin, as David did, and he /she repents of this sin, than you are correct, God will forgive the sinner.

Samix wrote,
So, the Christian says NO, anyone who believes in Christ and does such things like lying, cheating, rape, alcohol, drugs, murder, rape is not a Christian.

Interesting …. Although a Christian does not live in sin, he is not perfect, thus he would still sin while living in this world. He/she is constantly fighting a battle within himself against sin. In other words, he is constantly fighting against the evil nature with which he was born. If a Christian sins e.g. lies, or cheats he would repent of the sin and God will forgive him. Man will never be perfect until he reaches heaven.

God is faithful; The Holy Spirit (third person of the trinity) will not let those who sin rest until he/she confesses their sin before Him and feels the assurance of God’s forgiveness. Consider David, who was a God fearing man. When he sinned by committing adultery with Bathsheba and then proceeded to have Bathsheba’s husband murdered; he could not find peace in his soul until he repented. Read what he wrote in Psalm 32:1-5
Psalm 32
1Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
3When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.
4For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.
5I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

Samix wrote,
So, then the question comes to mind next is, so this means that acts(or lack of bad ones) are indeed important to being a Christian ? and the same Christian now jumps and says, NO!

A short answer to your questions is, yes,but not because God keeps a tally of our actions, but rather because it reveals the Christian's love for Jesus Christ; it is a reflection of God’s love for us.

Samix wrote,
Does anyone see the contradiction or am I the only one here ?
And if Christ has already payed for the sins of his believers, then they should not be punished in the courts of law in this world, because when God has already forgiven and payed for the sins then who are we humans to punish them ?


God has instituted governments to punish evil doers. If a person commits murder, he must still be punished in a court of law. Being a Christian does not mean one is above the law. A mass murderer can see the error of his way and repent and be forgiven by God; however, he must still pay the punishment given to him by the courts. If he repents of his sin and seeks forgiveness from God, God will forgive him as He has promised and he will be eternally saved.
1 John 1:5-9
5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Samix wrote,
With respect to humanitarian missions that Christians embark upon, then indeed, May God reward them for the good that they do to the poor and the needy, In Islam we are ever ready to appreciate the good that is there in people. In the same vein let us not forget that these humanitarian crisis are wrought by the very Christian soldiers who come half way across the globe to bomb, kill and maim people to steal their oil and other resources.


That is where you are wrong. Soldiers, those who come to bomb, kill and maim people to steal their oil and other resources are, by Biblical definition, not a Christian. I attended a meeting recently of one of these aid organizations. I only heard of the hospitals, medical clinics, and orphanages; no mention was made of any of the actions you noted. This particular organization has almost 2000 aid workers in over 50 countries around the world.

Samix wrote,
And exemplary Christian congressmen impose trade restrictions, bans and other embargoes on poor countries, thereby affecting severely the standard of living of the people in that country opening for them the doors of disease and death, whereas other exemplary Christian weapon dealers from the west sell weapons fueling civil war, rape and pillage.

Samix, you are calling the west Christian, assuming that all Westerners are Christian, perhaps that is why Muslims hate Christians. You cannot equate anyone from the west as being Christian, just as you cannot state that all Christians come from Western Nations. I expect Christian Prime Ministers and Presidents are few and far between. To call oneself a Christian does not make one so, by their actions you will be able to judge them. If it weren’t for some of these aid workers many more people would be starving and dying of treatable diseases. Unfortunately you are so full of hatred that you cannot see how much joy these people bring to those who have been neglected by even their own governments.

Samix wrote,
These are the only three points that I will touch in this post, because I have already addressed the others in my previous posts, least you should accuse me of bringing up the same topics again, though you have done the same thing by bringing up the actions of my "Fellow Muslims"

I am not sure what you are referring to re fellow Muslims. I believe I used that term only once when I pointed out that
The actions of your fellow Muslims speak louder than your words, Samix,
Perhaps, this term “fellow” is offensive in your culture, if so, I apologize. I meant it in the following context.
a. A person of equal rank, position, or background
I would suggest that this is a fair comment since you keep telling us that Islam does not teach hatred, nor promote violence. Yet others, who profess to be Muslims, (your fellow Muslims) are revealing something very different. As I have pointed out a number of times, even the traditions surrounding your prophet Mohammad reveal a man of violence. I am sorry if you consider these comments as smearing Mohammad. One cannot deny this is the case; nothing, not even the passage of time, will erase this reality.

Samix, With respect to your last post, in which you indicate what the Quran teaches about salvation, you must admit a Muslim can never really have the assurance of salvation,

Samix wrote that the following are the four conditions for a Muslim to obtain salvation:
1) To have faith in God and
2) Perform righteous deeds(deeds of the heart and limb) and
3) Teach and support the truth and
4) Teach and observe patience


I am curious, how does one know if he/she has ENOUGH faith, performed ENOUGH righteous deeds, taught and supports the truth ENOUGH, or if he/she had ENOUGH patience.

The Bible teaches that God will only accept a perfect life.
Before you misunderstand this, I must explain that in order to understand what I just wrote, you need to be familiar with the Covenant of Works which was given to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, as noted in Genesis 2:15-17. Adam and Eve would be able to remain in the Garden of Eden if they obeyed God perfectly.

As you know, man disobeyed God by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and thus fell into sin. As a result, Adam and Eve were sent from the garden and they were punished with eternal death, both physically and spiritually. God in His mercy revealed to them a new covenant, known as the Covenant of Grace (Genesis 3:15). In this covenant, God promised to send Jesus (the second person of the trinity) to bear the punishment of sin for all those who repent. Jesus is the ONLY solution because only man can pay the price for man’s sin, thus Jesus came to this earth as a man and only Jesus, being God, is able to bear the punishment and wrath of God. It is important to note that although Christ's work of atonement is sufficient for the entire world, only those who repent of their sin and turn to Jesus Christ will receive salvation. If we have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, only then can we experience the assurance of faith.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

As you can see, Samix, God won't let people who are “quite good” into heaven, only those who are perfect. It takes no effort to realize that none of us is perfect. Thankfully the Scriptures teach us that God is merciful and forgives imperfect sinners who come to Him asking for forgiveness for their sins, through Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Psalm 130
1 Out of the depths I cry to you, LORD;
2 Lord, hear my voice. Let your ears be attentive
to my cry for mercy.
3 If you, LORD, kept a record of sins,
Lord, who could stand?
4 But with you there is forgiveness,
so that we can, with reverence, serve you.
debsyl
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Re: Do you think this guy might possibly be DANGEROUS? 2 Years, 7 Months ago Karma: 168
First salvation because that was the main theme of our discussion.

A mass murderer can see the error of his way and repent and be forgiven by God; however, he must still pay the punishment given to him by the courts. If he repents of his sin and seeks forgiveness from God, God will forgive him as He has promised and he will be eternally saved.

So this means that Christ did not pay for your sins and that you have been selling false hopes to people around the world when your preachers say "Christ payed for the sins of humanity through his blood", either he did pay or he did not pay, if he payed for the sins then there should be no repentence.

Also in our past posts if you remember you were not comfortable with the Islamic idea of seeking forgiveness through repentance and now you seem to supporting the same.


Samix wrote,
So, then the question comes to mind next is, so this means that acts(or lack of bad ones) are indeed important to being a Christian ? and the same Christian now jumps and says, NO!


Debsyl said
A short answer to your questions is, yes, but not because God keeps a tally of our actions, but rather because it reveals the Christian's love for Jesus Christ; it is a reflection of God’s love for us.


Which means that acts are important in Christianity, so why were you accusing Islam in all your posts for being a action based religion when your religion Christianity itself is one ?

And from your current post it becomes clear that actions are very important in Christianity because you consider a particular person to be a Christian or not purely based on actions, so you say that Western soldiers and politicians are not Christians because their actions are not according to Christ.

Secondly, irrespective of what you state God does keep a tally of your works debsyl else how will the one who keeps more commandments will be known greater in the kingdom of God than the one who kept less commandments(hope you remember the verse from the bible) and he does keep a tally of your sins else how will he forgive you when you repent.

Samix, I thought we were having an amicable discussion, not an argument. Please tell me how I smeared Mohammad.
Well you smeared him again by stating that

even the traditions surrounding your prophet Mohammad reveal a man of violence. One cannot deny this is the case; nothing, not even the passage of time, will erase this reality.
Just do not make sweeping propaganda style statements debsyl, quote them if you want to make a point so that we can look into them.

I am curious to see news articles indicting that Christians are persecuting and killing Muslims because of their faith. Please remember that a Christian is one who adheres to the teachings of Christ. Everyone who professes to be a Christian is not necessarily one. Christ taught, by their fruits you shall know them.

The actions of your fellow Muslims speak louder than your words, Samix,


My point is this, theologically weather you consider them Christians or otherwise, they profess Christianity,they consider themselves as Christians.

On the same footing, it is surprising how you are not willing to separate the actions of Muslims from Islam, but are so adamant about separating the actions of Christians from Christianity and disenfranchising so many people of their Christian faith, when many of them may be more staunch believers in Christ than yourself, people who fight in the battlefield amidst bullets believe in God more than the one's who sit at home.

I would appreciate knowing how you feel about the Imams condoning the beating of Muslim wives and their promotion of violence against their perceived enemies.

I have already stated in my earlier posts spread across the BBC that Islam has nothing to do with all of this, but still if you insist on knowing how I feel then, I feel unlike the violence found against women and perceived enemies in the old testament, and before disassociating yourself from the old testament, just think for a moment that Christians do not allow the old testament to be part of the bible for nothing, and you have also used the old testament is your post as proof, also considering that you believe that Christ is god, so know that for you the God of the old and new testament is the same.

If Mohammad did not speak these words than why, Samix, did you make reference to Satan tempting Mohammad, notice what you wrote,Samix.

Samix wrote,
This is the work of Satan, trying to confuse people away from the truth, thus the verse says "Satan threw into it" and then Allah says, "Allah abolishes that which Satan throws in", thus it will never enter into his speech!


Where did I say that Muhammed, peace be upon him spoke those words ? I just made a general statement, about how Satan works and how God handles him.

I have already explained that this incident is a fabricated incident, and the guy who first reported this was not even born when the fabricated incident is supposed to taken place.

Your comments regarding the way of salvation for a Muslim are certainly interesting, but could you explain what Surah 23:102 & 103 means?
It clearly points to a religion of works.
Surah 23:102 & 103
23:102 Then those whose balance (of good deeds) is heavy,- they will attain salvation:
23:103 But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls, in Hell will they abide.


debsyl, how sincere is it to be part of a work based religion and then insist that the other guys religion is work based ? You insist that I understand the bible, not from isolated verses but you insist on understanding the Quran using isolated verses. why do you stop on verse 103 and not read further ?

In the same sura verse 105, further explains their case that they did not believe in the signs that were sent down to them which means that they did not have faith in God
"Were not My Signs rehearsed to you, and ye did but treat them as falsehood?" Quran 23:105

To make the matter clearer they are then contrasted with those people in verse 109 who used to believe in God
"A part of My servants there was, who used to pray 'our Lord! we believe; then do Thou forgive us, and have mercy upon us: For Thou art the Best of those who show mercy!" Quran 23:109

Then you said that
I am curious, how does one know if he/she has ENOUGH faith, performed ENOUGH righteous deeds, taught and supports the truth ENOUGH, or if he/she had ENOUGH patience.

I keep telling you again and again debsyl, the true test is sincerity, it is not some static mark that you need to reach on a scale, the test is to exert yourself as much as you can, it will differ with different people, if you have exerted yourself to the maximum and spent yourself in the way of the lord, then you have had it made.
samix
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