The greatest marine fraud/ murder of the 20th century?

Why They Sunk The Titanic Part 1
youtu.be/II-JVcaW0O0

Food for thought

The identical sister ship (skippered by the same captain in charge of the Titanic) was involved in a collision in 1910 with a naval vessel designed to sink ships. The insurers refused to pay out when the Navy was exonerated.

The damage was very similar to the damage sustained by the Titanic when it “scraped” along the side of the iceberg (instead of hitting it dead on as they were supposed to do)

Titanic and Olympic were berthed side by side when work was carried out on them in Belfast.

Titanic described on maiden voyage as UNSINKABLE (fake AAA ratings anyone?)

J.P. Morgan owner of the White Star Line and the Titanic and who had his own private suite and promenade deck on board, CANCELS his passage just before setting off. (Bankers dumping toxic waste before crash?)

No ship had EVER SUNK from hitting an iceberg before. Sub-standard (sub-prime?)iron rivets were used.

NOT ONE PAIR OF BINOCULARS was available on the Crow`s nest - "Icebergs? I see no icebergs!"

The 16 "Water-tight compartments" which were nothing of the sort, were designed to prevent sinking as long as less than 5 of them were not filled. Exactly 5 were filled to capacity.

The Titanic cost $10 million to build. The Olympic was basically uninsurable after the collision. One week before the maiden voyage of the “Titanic” (Olympic), White Star line upped the insurance on the vessel, and just 5 days after the sinking, the insurers, Lloyds paid out $12.5 million! (credit default swaps anyone?)

That’s the insurance aspect but there is another deeper layer to the conspiracy, in which J.P. Morgan “whacked” his competitors.

The Californian (also White Star), close by, ignored the distress flares and radio signals from the Titanic.

There were only enough lifeboats for half the passengers and they weren`t filled to capacity.

"Killed on the sinking ship -- along with 1,514 other people -- were Benjamin Guggenheim, Isa Strauss and John Jacob Astor. Astor was, at the time, believed to be the wealthiest man on the planet. Guggenheim and Strauss weren't far behind Astor. And these three powerful men opposed the Federal Reserve."

The Federal Reserve was set-up one year later.

JJ Astor was also financially backing Nikola Tesla after J.P. Morgan had cut his funding when he discovered Tesla`s plans for free electricity.

Astor`s body was found floating in the Sea, there was NO WATER IN HIS LUNGS, he died before he could drown.

J.P Morgan himself died exactly one year later TO THE DAY.

Wow!!!

In a PRE-9/11 world, many of us MIGHT be tempted to laugh this off as being TOO evil/outrageous for even JP Morgan to plot.

In a POST-9/11 world, it merely looks like a plot that was "ahead of its time"...

Note that there are only TWO ways for one ultra-powerful Oligarch to take down another. Get them arrested (the favorite tactic in Russia), or MURDER THEM - the favorite tactic of the U.S./UK/Israeli Axis of Evil.

P.S. Note that living in a world where we MISTAKENLY believe that the Great Depression was caused by the U.S. stock market crash, it would be no big surprise to learn that a MUCH smaller episode from history was also PURE FICTION, created BY the Oligarchs, for their own nefarious purposes...

Dylan wrote:


Titanic described on maiden voyage as UNSINKABLE


Indications are that the 'unsinkable' tag was invented by the newspapers, post-sinking, to add a hubristic tone to the tragedy.



No ship had EVER SUNK from hitting an iceberg before.



Really? That's quite a claim.



NOT ONE PAIR OF BINOCULARS was available on the Crow`s nest



Binoculars are useless at night - they reduce available light. The lookout spotted 'a dark mass' at three miles and correctly identified it as an iceberg dead ahead at 500 yards. One minute is more than enough to shift course a few degrees at that speed - if they steered correctly..?



The 16 "Water-tight compartments" which were nothing of the sort, were designed to prevent sinking as long as less than 5 of them were not filled. Exactly 5 were filled to capacity.



Very exact of them to hit the iceberg exactly right...



The Californian (also White Star), close by, ignored the distress flares and radio signals from the Titanic.



A steamship isn't a turn-key machine. Stopped for the night, the boilers would have been raked out to prevent the passengers from being kept awake by constantly venting steam. She was ten miles away, didn't keep an overnight radio watch and would have taken at least three hours to get up steam and reach Titanic.



"Killed on the sinking ship -- along with 1,514 other people -- were Benjamin Guggenheim, Isa Strauss and John Jacob Astor. Astor. Astor`s body was found floating in the Sea, there was NO WATER IN HIS LUNGS, he died before he could drown.



In that temperature of water; thermal shock kills in minutes - he wouldn't have lasted long enough to drown, particularly if he was wearing a buoyancy aid.

I'm all for a good conspiracy tale; but facts can only be stretched and misrepresented so far.

Thanks a lot for that very credible rebuttal Screwloose! As you know, Skeptics are always welcome here.

So on the one hand we have a very attractive THEORY. On the other hand as Screwloose points out, much of the "evidence" used to support the theory appears to be as "unsinkable" as the Titanic itself...Doesn't mean the theory is WRONG, but it does mean we could still use considerably more corroborating evidence.



P.S. The part about JP Morgan suddenly BOOKING OFF the Titanic's maiden voyage is something which I've seen/heard before. So if THAT part is true then we would certainly wonder if old J.P. was just VERY, VERY lucky; whether he was psychic; or whether he KNEW SOMETHING that no one else did.

Sorry Screwloose, but you are shooting at an elephant with a pop-gun

Unsinkable Titanic

The vice-president of the white star line stated that the Titanic was "unsinkable" (which was true because it was the Olympic) both BEFORE AND AFTER the event.
"There is no danger that Titanic will sink. The boat is unsinkable and nothing but inconvenience will be suffered by the passengers."
-Phillip Franklin, White Star Line Vice-President

"I thought her unsinkable and I based my opinion on the best expert advice."
-Phillip Franklin, White Star Line Vice President

White star line published a brochure in 1910 in which it stated
'these two wonderful vessels are designed to be unsinkable' This refers to the Olympic and Titanic
There is no getting around that statement. True, you can use the qualifier "designed to be" to squirm out of admitting it, but that is splitting nano-particles.

Who controlled the media but J.P Morgan and his buddies?


No Prior ship sinking from hitting an iceberg

This is simply a fact, and merely stating that it is quite a claim, is NOT a rebuttal, so moving on,


Missing Binoculars

The lookout seems to have thought that binoculars would have been useful and stated so during the official inquiry.

"Lookout Fred Fleet, who survived the 1912 sinking in which 1,522 died, told an inquiry they would have seen the fatal iceberg sooner with binoculars. When asked how much sooner, he replied: "Enough to get out of the way."

They had night glasses in those days, binoculars with huge objective lenses which WERE considered useful at night, hence the name NIGHT glasses.

They also had 6 pairs on the bridge, so THEY must have considered them useful as well.

Screwloose "The lookout spotted 'a dark mass' at three miles and correctly identified it as an iceberg dead ahead at 500 yards. One minute is more than enough to shift course a few degrees at that speed - if they steered correctly..?"

This is where we agree, they had plenty of time to avoid it, but they didn`t. The missing binoculars were used to scapegoat the look-out and the officer who had left them in the locker. The whole thing still sticks out like a sore thumb. How does this weaken the argument?

Non Water-tight "Water tight compartments"

Screwloose "Very exact of them to hit the iceberg exactly right..."

What has this to do with my statement? They didn`t have to hit the iceberg exactly right, only claim it, because the damage had already been done. They only had to sabotage the dodgy repair work.
As for the compartments, they didn`t reach all the way up so how could they have been water-tight? Even Andrews complained about that.

The Californian

There was radio contact between the two ships. It was inexplicably but undeniably switched off at a crucial point.
There were NO passengers aboard the Californian. It was carrying cargo.
It was close enough to rescue the passengers and should have responded as was concluded by the OFFICIAL inquiry.

JJ Astor

Maybe you are right on this one about the icy death, doesn`t change the murder angle one jot though, as he was refused access to a lifeboat, women and children first and not enough life boats.

Ignoring facts can only be credibly stretched so far as well.

I personally, find this theory infinitely more plausible than the astronomical list of human errors and chance coincidences that we are supposed to believe.

I've only wasted enough of my bandwidth allowance to view that first section; but there are enough glaring questions in that bit alone.

If the White Star Line was pulling a ringer and the Titanic and Olympic has been swapped; work out how many people would have had to be in on the secret. Dead men may tell no tales; but old, dying, men often do - where's the whistleblower?

The video shows a clip of Olympic and points out the very visible replating - which no-one at Southhampton seems to have either noticed, or thought odd for a brand new ship..?

How do you make a used ship look and smell new again? Every engineer on the crew would have instantly spotted that their systems weren't new. Even some of the passengers must have sailed on the Olympic previously - and didn't notice?

Easy to say that it didn't hit the iceberg and that they simply 'sabotaged' the damaged area - but ice debris was reported on the foredeck and the ship sank by the head, not the stern, where Olympic was damaged?

The bulkheads had water-tight doors in them; they weren't created to be airtight caissons. They clearly worked as advertised when the Olympic was struck in that very iffy collision - 'sucked in' - Hmm...

I have used 7x70 Naval 'night' glasses and am very familiar with the 'magic 7' and its effect on low-light vision; I'll stick with saying that they would have been of little use to them - except as a handy excuse - as prior to nitrogen-fill, how are they going to stop them steaming-up under those near-freezing conditions?

You are correct that the Californian - although a cargo liner - wasn't carrying passengers on that trip. I'll still maintain that there was little need to fire the boilers all night beyond what may have been required for generation. Her top speed was 12 knots - maybe five hours after getting under way, and her position was never verified - but between ten and nineteen miles away. If she was part of some great plan, the precise position of herself, the 'Titanic' and the iceberg must have been worked out in advance - fantasy.

I remain unconvinced that no ship had ever been sunk by contact with an iceberg. Prior to radio and compartmentalization; the slightest collision could simply have rendered a ship "overdue" - forever.

Why should JPM - in the last year of his life - risk his reputation on such a hare-brained scam. He made Bill Gates look like a pauper and his nominal worth then would still make him one of the richest men today - think on that.

A quick Google shows that this theory has been debunked by those with more time than me: haven't read it but it's supposed to be conclusive. www.markchirnside.co.uk/DISSERTATION.htm

Screwloose

"A quick Google shows that this theory has been debunked by those with more time than me: haven't read it but it's supposed to be conclusive. www.markchirnside.co.uk/DISSERTATION.htm"

"I've only wasted enough of my bandwidth allowance to view that first section; but there are enough glaring questions in that bit alone."

" haven`t read it but it`s supposed to be conclusive"???

Sums up your attitude. If you think it`s a waste of time then don`t post. It won`t go away because of broad sweeping statements that have had no thought put into them.

I posted this as interesting food for thought, which it is. I`m not trying to convert you. Go back to your busy life. But don`t think in any way that I am convinced by your weak, hurried arguments.


"If the White Star Line was pulling a ringer and the Titanic and Olympic has been swapped; work out how many people would have had to be in on the secret. Dead men may tell no tales; but old, dying, men often do - where's the whistleblower?"

The old, boring canard about it being impossible for so many people to be in on the secret. Look into the Manhattan project, Enron, 911, the sub-prime mortgage scam, basic operating procedures of the secret services and military, the undeniable existence of the sicilian mafia and other organised crime and so on. History proves you wrong. All this, despite the obvious difficulty of proving that a secret has been well kept from the public due to it being a SECRET.
As for the old, dying whistleblower, there was one, Patrick Fenton who told his tale in Australia.
Don`t think this was a stand alone event either, marine fraud was common then as it is now.

The higher levels of the crew would have had to be in on it. The surviving crew members were all sworn to secrecy. Fear works. As for the passengers, don`t make me laugh. The number of suicides following the event also gives one pause for thought.

I didn`t say that they didn`t hit the iceberg, I said that the iceberg collision (which happened) was not necessary to sink the ship.

The water-tight compartments were advertised as water-tight, which they weren`t, as the ships designer Thomas Andrews complained about. I`m not talking about the doors which of course were water-tight.

The look-out said that binoculars WOULD have been useful, whether they were or not is beside the point. Hair-splitting.

It was concluded in the official inquiry that the Californian could have saved the passengers. She need only have been in the area of the iceberg field, no need for precise coordinates - a straw man argument. How did boats EVER find each other if you are correct?
Another fact I forget to mention is that the the operators in the Marconi room of the Titanic were given the WRONG coordinates for the (very late) sending of the SOS signal.

No ship was ever sunk before from hitting an iceberg, I didn`t say damaged. The difference is significant. Give me an example of a ship sinking due to hitting an iceberg or I will remain convinced of this historical FACT.

J.P. Morgan was known as the Devil himself. He hardly had a clean reputation. He was already responsible for far more deaths than occurred here, think war-racketeering and banking scams.
It obviously wasn`t hare-brained because the public didn`t find out about it. Your opinion that it was "hare-brained" is just that, your opinion.
He MADE money on it, knocked out his competitors, established control over the monetary system and maintained control of metered electricity.

The biggest, most successful lies are in your face as your disbelief aptly demonstrates.

As you appear to have swallowed this tale hook, line and err... sink 'er; I'll not waste any more time trying to point out the glaring inconsistencies - as you say, I have a life.

If the non-existence of the Manhattan Project; the Mafia; Enron; sub-prime crimes; etc. is supposed to prove that secrecy works - how come that I've heard about all of them. As for 9/11 - saying that nothing has leaked of the conspiracy theory is something of a circular argument.

Even the most heavily classified secrets of the intelligence services - material that I know was instantly placed under 100 year total embargoes - are now openly printed in books less than a generation later. Keeping secrets comes at a heavy price - trust me, it's not worth it.

I have plenty of time (maybe too much!) and as I started this thread, I will always reply to any posts here. Plus I enjoy it.

All the "glaring inconsistencies" are nothing of the sort, only in the official account.
The dots are there, if you can`t join them together, don`t blame me.

Screwloose "If the non-existence of the Manhattan Project; the Mafia; Enron; sub-prime crimes; etc. is supposed to prove that secrecy works - how come that I've heard about all of them. As for 9/11 - saying that nothing has leaked of the conspiracy theory is something of a circular argument."

Why would I list all those things only to say that they didn`t exist? Answer - I didn`t. I used them as examples of lots of people conspiring, more or less successfully to keep information out of public view. You know about them now because they were disclosed later. None of them were entirely successful which is why we have conspiracy theories and why you now also know about the Titanic one if you didn`t before.
Most of these things are in everyone`s faces everyday, just ignored and officially denied. Thats enough and they rely on it.

How do you know ALL the most heavily classified secrets of the past are now printed openly in books? You don`t.

Why should I trust you if you know all about the heavy price of keeping secrets!?
I can`t imagine an evil oligarch staying awake all night worrying about the "heavy price" of secrets. Thats if they sleep at all.